The Map
Hey all,
I was rereading question #490 over at the Ishmael Community recently. And I was wondering if some of you feel confident that "you have made the new map your own." Personally, I don't. This is frustrating because I've been reading Ishmael related material for ten years now and it doesn't seem like it has sunk in yet. Or perhaps it's just surviving in this culture that makes it seem that way to me, I don't know.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
thank you,
Curt
Theory and Practice
Submitted by Huby7 on Mon, 2010-02-01 13:44.
Tony,
I appreciate the response.
You wrote: "I think the whole Ishmael thing is a mental change."
Yeah, it is. And depending on the person, "making the map your own" can be a long, tedious process, but worth it! I think a lot of it goes back to the size of the gulf between one's theory and practice.
take care,
Curt
Knowing vs Nash
Submitted by Ghost on Mon, 2010-02-01 18:00.
Hey, Curt.
Personally I think you're being a little hard on yourself. I've always though of you as a great thinker in this field of ours. I don't know what you're going through or feeling, but I think you should throw yourself some more credit.
We've spoken frequently about the fact that I'm a subjectivist. Part of that belief is that I believe in socially constructed reality. The world exists as a constructed model in our head. We interact with our model, not the world as it is. So the Roman Catholic map that DQ is talking about is one model. The Taker model is another one. You and I and others, I feel, HAVE absorbed DQ's message (and a lot of Jensen for you too) and created a new map. You could never compare our constructed reality with Taker reality. When people ask us if humans are special or flawed or destined to rule the earth, we hit them with answers that make their head spin cause we just plain don't see the world that way.
That being said, what I do find frustrating is enacting my socially constructed reality. I don't want to work for corporations or throw out plastic or rely on fossil fuels or be a part of the Taker grid (that wacky global infrastructure that is bad for humans and terrible for the planet). But there is a Nash Equilibrium at work in the world. All the players are using the annihilator strategy and none of them gain an advantage by unilaterally abandoning the strategy, so none do. We are, in some degree, analagous to Native Americans. They have a map and way of life that is impossible to enact on the paltry reservations they have been crammed into. So they either abandon that way of life or fall into desperation. I feel in a similar situation. For seven years I've tried to find the economic space to support my new cultural space and have failed pretty abjectly. So I spent the last 10 months just embracing Taker culture and it made me miserable. We all have to make a living, but what are the available options? So yeah, surviving in this culture is the key. I find that frustrating, but I know that I have internalised the map.
Just make sure you know the difference between looking at the world through a lens that is decidedly not Taker and being trapped in a world where Taker culture is an economic powerhouse that doesn't like sharing.
All of that being said, DQ does throw me some curve balls now and then that make me feel like a rank amature 
But hey, it must be what it was like when pysicists speak to Einstein or Hawking.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
Behind the Curtain
Submitted by Huby7 on Mon, 2010-02-01 19:36.
Hi Matt,
Thank you for the kind words and response.
There is a lot to think about and respond to in your post. I have a few minutes here before the baby wakes up to comment on a couple of things that you said:
You wrote: "I don't know what you're going through or feeling..."
Well, it's the middle of winter in northwestern Wisconsin. There is well over a foot of snow on the ground, and for close to a week I've woken up to a temperature reading ranging anywhere from -30 to -10 below zero, and that's not including the windchill. I suppose that could be part of it. The chickadees don't seem to mind it though. Oh, and the beer and coffee haven't been tasting the same...:-)
You wrote: "All of that being said, DQ does throw me some curve balls now and then that make me feel like a rank amature."
Yeah, before I started this blog post I was reading question and answers over at the Ishmael community for a half-n-hour or so. It occured to me that once again if I was asked to answer a lot of those questions from the Ishmael Community I couldn't do it half as good as Daniel Quinn did it. He's simply a master at making sense while still being clear and concise with his answers. He really does stick to the philosophy of never let them see you sweat. Of course, that's a talent all within itself, you still need to understand the subject matter well. Which is where I think I'm still missing the mark.
You wrote: "But there is a Nash Equilibrium at work in the world. All the players are using the annihilator strategy and none of them gain an advantage by unilaterally abandoning the strategy, so none do."
Yes, this has always factored in when I really get to thinking about the metaphorical gun (species extinction, climate change, peak oil, etc.) pointing at our heads. I'm curious, where did you discover there was a Nash Equilibrium at work, Matt? I don't ever remember DQ mentioning it.
take care,
Curt
Nash, Memes, ESS and DQ
Submitted by Ghost on Tue, 2010-02-02 18:48.
Hey, Curt.
It's not a DQ thing, it's a game theory thing and a Nash Equilibrium thing.
Daniel Quinn identified the Taker strategy. He called it the annihilator strategy. Simply put, grow at all costs and wipe out all competitors.
This has become an ESS. It has been selected above all other strategies and it is resistant to invasion by other strategies. It is not stable because it is sustainable, but because within the context of the ecosystem in finds itself in, a world full of annihilators, it offers the best advantage; even if it means dooming us to extinction in the long term.
From a memetics standpoint, the "Taker map" is a memeplex, a network of self-supporting memes, that is resistant to invasion by other memes; like the Leaver memes we like so much.
So when you put all of this together, you get a world full of Taker groups enacting the annihilator strategy (be they government or corporation or other powerful group: this collection of groups has also been referred to as the global peer polity). Each group is trying to control resources and grow and will annihilate the other players given half the chance. This creates an equilibrium, in which each player gains benefit by maintaining the strategy. It is a Nash Equilibrium because no player gains any benefit by UNILATERALLY changing their strategy. For instance, if Iran were do disarm and disband it's standing army, it would be overwhelmed by the other players using the annihilator strategy. If Pakistan reverted to hunting and gathering in a way that did not violate the law of limited competition, they wouldn't be able to create the surpluses needed to maintain the army (both in terms of food and in terms of the man hours provided by the complex division of labour) needed to defend itself from India and would be overwhelmed. So neither Iran nor Pakistan would make those moves. Thus this Nash Equilibrium is both resistant to other strategies because it is an ESS and likely to continue because no player is likely to unilaterally change their strategy.
Enter us. We have a different map. Our understanding of the world is heavilly influenced by Leaver memes. This is why we can answer questions outside of the box (and BTW, don't be discouraged, DQ has been thinking this way for 60 years professionally, of course he has the greatest grasp. He's also a professional writer so yeah, he's gonna be more articulate). These memes are difficult to implement because they don't exist in a vaccuum; the ecosystem is filled with competing Taker memes. So what do we do? We have to break the Nash Equilibrium. If not, our species is doomed. So how do we do that?We answer three questions.
One question is, what memes could we insert into the Taker memeplex, one that is resistant to invasion, that would make it more benign (effectively CONCURRENTLY changing the strategy of all the players)?
Another question is, what is a NEW strategy (either a brand new one like Nested Parasite or some form of re-tooled pre-existing one like Erratic Retaliator) that can be introduced unilaterally by a new player (a group of Ishtypes for example), played and remain competitive within the context of a world full of groups enacting annihilator ?
A final question is, what strategy can be developed that would offer a GREATER benefit to the players currently enacting annihilator if they chose to unilaterally change to that strategy?
By answering these questions, we save the human race.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
Game Theory
Submitted by Huby7 on Thu, 2010-02-04 13:28.
Hi Matt,
Your explanation makes sense to me. Thank you for it.
For what it's worth DQ does mention game theory but in a different context.
take care,
Curt
The Game
Submitted by Ghost on Thu, 2010-02-04 21:52.
Hey, Curt.
Thanks for the link. On the subject of game theory, I think that Quinn might have spoken about the prisoner's dillema at some point. It is used to explain altruism, the cornerstone of the give support / get support model.
Peace and Love and Empathy,
Matt
sdfeefg
Submitted by Wheres Raven on Tue, 2010-02-02 13:18.
What is this "it" that hasn't sunk in yet? If you don't have "it" yet, then how can you know what "it" is, that you don't have?
There is no culture. Just a bunch of people who talk to themselves about life... and what they say, varies.
If you think you are NOT the way yet.... then you are telling yourself that..... and believing it.... Imagine what people tell themselves, on a day to day basis!
Does the Hero not continuously do this, along the path?
I think that simple recognition of this, may be your next step. Hoaning your selfishness as a skill that goes hand in hand with empathy. Ruffle those feathers a bit.... but just enough for you.
babble
Submitted by Wheres Raven on Fri, 2010-02-05 10:40.
I think that the point of it all, is to aquire some sort of feeling of belonging. Sometimes I think that reading thinking reading thinking reading thinking acutally pushes belonging away.... pushing it away to the future..... The time where everything is 'OKAY'.... just ahead...... Maybe after THIS book I'll get it all. I'll finally find the key to it all.... Other people SEEM like they 'get it' to me (cause they present it well linguistically).... so I'll read what they read.
But the key is NOT a concept or strategy. It is the feeling of belonging, itself.
So..... so what?
How?
Alter reality
Growable Drugs. Full Moon gazing. beat drum in the dark. owl eyes. mantra. Internal martial arts. swing a stick... stare into your own eyes... flip somethingover and over in your hands (juggle, Iguess LOL)
Changing patterns of awareness
Follow the clock less. change sleep schedual. Play with a door knob, cause you like the sound. Make 'normal' anew. Look at everything differently, whenever you can (physically and conceptually).
Fuck with yourself. Make fun of yourself and then laugh at it. We are our ultimate critic... so critize the critic until it's had enough. Life is just way too spectacular to take soooo seriously.
Becoming the Change
Submitted by nene on Tue, 2010-02-02 15:40.
Hey Curt --
Sorry I've been so slow in answering... I saw your post on Sunday, but I've been sick and uninspired 
I think both Matt and Tony hit on a couple of the keys to this... Tony's "these 'one foot in' accoutrements and behaviors don't take away from my 'one foot out' actions and behaviors." is a great metaphor. There are all these ideas about what we *want* to see in the world, but then there is everyday reality. The simple fact of doing things differently, even if just some things, is a HUGE accomplishment. Look at all the systems in place (internally and externally) to prevent us from doing anything differently at all.
Matt, too, has been struggling with this disconnect between world view and actual physical reality over the last months... and I think that is kinda the point at this stage in our growth. The dicotomy we face is a given at this point. At least for those of us that have been around for a while (although I think it is probably far more than just us old timers. Culture itself is starting to shift, leaving more of "us" than just Quinn and Jensen readers). Isn't that a triumph? That the way we see the world has moved far enough that we no longer "catch" ourselves making assumptions ass-backwards to Quinn? That IS being the message, doncha think?
But for all that, day to day life is still hard and we still question ourselves over things we need to do to survive that are contrary to what and who we want to be. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way to avoid this. Our generation (refering more to our mental place than the year we were born) has the unfortunate task of having to be "better" -- because reality does not afford us the simple, systemic support that leaver cultures enbody. So we seek that better life, knowing that it is going to be hard, but if we have the opportunity to one day see it, it will all be worthwhile.
Janene
The man who hunts and dwells
The man who hunts and dwells in dwellings he made doesn't have a map? You may feel lost, but you've been quietly leading the way.
I think the whole Ishmael thing is a mental change. I think too often we want to 'go back' to what workED. But that's not possible. Civilization before the information age prevented that possibility.
Now we're all a big blob, with the information to move forward, but without the cultural allegiance and knowledge to handle such a global migration of culture, we assume, as those with knowledge, that the way through splintering from a culture also requires knowledge. But what people know about cultures splitting is experiential, and not actual knowledge, you can't write a how-to, but, it was a story of how splintering WAS done. Without stories of how culture split, being filled with knowledge how to make the cultures come together (multi-culturalism, war, television propaganda), I can see how it's easy to be stuck in thinking there is a way, or there are ways to split a culture.
There aren't, There are only the stories of those who have succeeded or failed.
I think you are a success story, Curt, why don't you?
I struggle with the concept of "Purge the Puritan" and often find myself altering my puritan viewpoints, changing the position of the critical light, not extinguished them. I've always had a hard time, and have had to accept these things as my 'one foot in'. What I have eventually learned is that these 'one foot in' accoutrements and behaviors don't take away from my 'one foot out' actions and behaviors.