Interview with a tribal business member

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Congratulations on what you are doing. 

Now please allow me to do what I do... 

These terms such as "fare trade", "living wage", are all defined. And these definitions are subject to change.  Much like the term "organic".  They change with the money-economy. This is WHY politics "works".  Our perception of these words can't possibly line up with their current defined meaning.  And if they did we would all be robots.  

How do I know if things are REALLY fare? Who decides this?, and if wages (boooo) are living?  Am I living without them? Why wages at all?  What the hell does trade mean?If I don't require as much money as another, to live, what determines the amount of wage?  Is that fare?

The trivialization of reality happens with the word game.   

Money is an illusion.   When we deal in a money-economy we have to create illusions (terms) to uphold the illusion.  It's official

Tribe is a whole, that does not consist of many tribal ideas (illusions), added up.  If we try to do that we'll end up with a Strawman version of it... A house of cards.  A tribe of robots, programmed to act out the "terms". eeek! 

One thing that individuals in real tribes had was the ability to drop everything, and walk away from it.  As individuals their ability to survive was as natural to them as any other member of the community of life.... 

What is your survivability?
And has it increased with opening your own business?
If money was gone tomorrow, would you be able to eat?  Stay warm? Have fresh water?

Even if we could buy the renewable products to do all this for us.  What worth do WE HAVE in the community of life, except that of a "consumer"..... still

Can you survive without money's help?
If so, I congratulate you.  And would ask: why bother working?
If not... why not? when?

If we rely on getting and making products for our survival, does it matter how "tribal" we act?  Or how many tribal ideas we use?
 
Aren't we then just more efficient Takers?
Taking energy we don't need - in the form of illusion - from the community of life.... ?
 

I like the idea of a community coming together, but under WHOSE terms?

This culture always keeps their terms a step ahead of the people that buy into them.  Or is it the other way around?

I don't really have a point here, and that's the point.

Adam Hintz's picture

...

Wheres Raven wrote:

This is WHY politics "works".  Our perception of these words can't possibly line up with their current defined meaning.  And if they did we would all be robots.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean the terms "fair trade" and "organic" have a different semantic meaning to us then others who haven't read Daniel Quinn? 

Wheres Raven wrote:

How do I know if things are REALLY fare? Who decides this?, and if wages (boooo) are living?  Am I living without them? Why wages at all?  What the hell does trade mean?If I don't require as much money as another, to live, what determines the amount of wage?  Is that fare?

For more information on Fair Trade Economics here's a link.

Wheres Raven wrote:

What is your survivability?
And has it increased with opening your own business?
If money was gone tomorrow, would you be able to eat?  Stay warm? Have fresh water?

I guess my survivability is as good as anyone's. Probably more so since the business opened since I've found other like minds and we can work together to survive. I've learned some traditional skills and pretty sure if money was gone tomorrow I'd have less of a problem with it than most people.

Wheres Raven wrote:

Can you survive without money's help?
If so, I congratulate you.  And would ask: why bother working?
If not... why not? when?

I think I could survive without money's help. I've kind of been preparing for that. Why bother working? Well, I really like being apart of a tribe and apart of the community in this way. I have a lot of personal relationships with people and find my lifestyle fascinating.

Where's Raven wrote:

If we rely on getting and making products for our survival, does it matter how "tribal" we act?  Or how many tribal ideas we use?

I'm more planning for the worst and hoping for the best. I don't totally rely on making drinks for my survival. I also participate with the community gardens and other sustainable systems in the community. I hang out in my local stretch of wilderness and learn about native plants.

I don't think it's about always acting "tribal" but more about being more sustainable and evolutionarily strategic. And I'd like to bring as may people I can along for the journey.

Where's Raven wrote:

Aren't we then just more efficient Takers?
Taking energy we don't need - in the form of illusion - from the community of life.... ?

This is a good point. I often wonder if the tools we're creating will be used help us "jump over the cliff" I know that without these tools the collapse will be harsher. That's why a changing minds is so important. Without changed minds this is all just a kinder gentler way to kill ourselves.

My belief is that through Meadowlark minds will be changed. I use it as a soapbox. Since the article in the paper about how Ishmael inspired me to start the store, many people have picked up the book and read it. A changed mind community is developing here in Lincoln. I think the best I can do for the community of life is to stop and reverse the conversion of biomass into human mass. I can only do this by deceasing the footprint of my lifestyle and the business. Then inspire other to do the same by showing them how much more rich my life is because of it.

Before Meadowlark occupied it's current space. The building was rented by a pizza chain. A "Subway" was in competition with us when we were negotiating our lease. What do you think is better for the community of life? A business that may be able to have zero footprint and possibly be able to add to the community of life. Or another expansionist fast food restaurant?

Wheres Raven wrote:

I like the idea of a community coming together, but under WHOSE terms?

Could you clarify this question? I would say it's the terms of the community. But I don't know if that answers your question.

Thank you so much for you critique! These dialogues are what refines a movement and strengthens strategies.

Looking forward to you reply!

P.S. Could you post a blog or somthing so I can know you more as a person and see where you're coming from. I think it would help alot. Big Smile

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AH wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean the terms "fair trade" and "organic" have a different semantic meaning to us then others who haven't read Daniel Quinn?

I'm talkin about everyone who these terms act apon.  I meant that... when a word - that has semantic meaning to people, is made into a legal term - with set definition, it doesn't matter what we think it means.  The definition is all that matters in law.  That's the advertising/political/legal trick...  and the game that needs to end.

Legal terms/entities hold no water in reality, but in order to play the game we have to use them/become them. And we have no/very little say as to how these terms are defined.  And yet we play along, and (try) act them out...  

We buy these products with these labels on them that we interperate as being good.  We listen to words from politicians and think that we know what they are saying, and they convince themselves too most of the time.     

I'm wondering why people here want to continue playing this game.  When the only way to get rid of it, is to render it useless?

AH wrote:

For more information on Fair Trade Economics here's a link.

I had no say in the creation of "Fair Trade Economics".  So if I go there, I am simply being told 'how things are'.  How can I be anything else but observer/consumer?  I am only interested in trading fairly.
Fair trade. I don't even know what this means to everyone... The only fair trade I am going be able to react to/trust is trade I participate in personally. 

And not on company/legal/organizational terms.  But on the terms of direct individual need.  Only then is it fair...
It's not fair because a commitee said so, or statistics equated so. 
It's all just a sound and light show, to keep people distracted from trading fairly.  More idealism/utopianism
 

AH wrote:

I guess my survivability is as good as anyone's. Probably more so since the business opened since I've found other like minds and we can work together to survive. I've learned some traditional skills and pretty sure if money was gone tomorrow I'd have less of a problem with it than most people.

What is a like mind?  That sounds scary. 
So your survivability is as good as anyones, yet you say that you'd have less of a probelm than most people.  So how are you helping 'most people'?
How is 'bringing people together' under the money economy going to help them survive without it?
People are coming together to help eachother out, so that they don't need to rely on  9 to 5 jobs to make money to buy things that they don't need in the first place?  Sounds like a wheely-bout

To me money can never be fair to the community of life.

AH wrote:

I think I could survive without money's help. I've kind of been preparing for that. Why bother working? Well, I really like being apart of a tribe and apart of the community in this way. I have a lot of personal relationships with people and find my lifestyle fascinating.

Are you not already a part of the community all the time?   Is your life more fascinating because you like your style of it?  Isn't ALL life fascinating? 

I think that knowing about past leaver tribes is usefull because they point to the wisdom of nature, and show how we ARE nature itself.

But extracting principles from wholes, and trying to act them out is as futile as creating terms/entities/laws/religions, and trying to act them out.

AH wrote:

I'm more planning for the worst and hoping for the best. I don't totally rely on making drinks for my survival. I also participate with the community gardens and other sustainable systems in the community. I hang out in my local stretch of wilderness and learn about native plants.

I'm not really sure what YOU mean by 'worst' and 'best'.  I'm also not too sure what you mean by 'sustainable' and 'community'. 
Isn't hope distracting? 
Are there any non-native plants in your local stretch of wilderness?

AH wrote:

I don't think it's about always acting "tribal" but more about being more sustainable and evolutionarily strategic. And I'd like to bring as may people I can along for the journey.

Strategy is a one woman/man show.  If you don't think it is, then your strategy will be: to try to convince others that your strategy is best.  Nature isn't strategic.  Human minds make it SEEM so.  There is a colossal (infinite) difference between what happens, and our explanation about what happens.
Taking people along on a journey of ideas that seem to lead to a vision of perfection is futile in my opinion, and controlling.  It's like trying to tame nature.
To me this supresses the nature behind our selves. 
To me Daniel was using words to try to explain what happens of it's own accord.  And I think that we need to watch that we aren't idealizing life, and then putting those ideas on ourselves as goals to acheive.  This doesn't feel right to me.  But I could be wrong with respect to his intentions.

AH wrote:

This is a good point. I often wonder if the tools we're creating will be used help us "jump over the cliff" I know that without these tools the collapse will be harsher. That's why a changing minds is so important. Without changed minds this is all just a kinder gentler way to kill ourselves.

I think the creation of the tools itself is driving us towards insanity.  Because when we feel like a product, we need a product to entertain us/do it for us.
So people that see this, need to stop being a product/fake and start saying what they feel.  Insted of saying what they THINK they should feel.
Deep down everyone can do this... but we mix them up in order to 'go along to get along'. 

We need to go along to get along with nature.  And that can happen in every moment of the day.  The more often people do and say what they feel, the more their mind will change.  

AH wrote:

My belief is that through Meadowlark minds will be changed. I use it as a soapbox. Since the article in the paper about how Ishmael inspired me to start the store, many people have picked up the book and read it. A changed mind community is developing here in Lincoln. I think the best I can do for the community of life is to stop and reverse the conversion of biomass into human mass. I can only do this by deceasing the footprint of my lifestyle and the business. Then inspire other to do the same by showing them how much more rich my life is because of it.

You talk about Meadowlark like it actually exists other than on paper. 
And you talk about a 'changed mind community' as if it is a goal to acheive.
Why create a business/entity that has a footprint at all? 
Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
How long does it take to walk away? 

AH wrote:

Before Meadowlark occupied it's current space. The building was rented by a pizza chain. A "Subway" was in competition with us when we were negotiating our lease. What do you think is better for the community of life? A business that may be able to have zero footprint and possibly be able to add to the community of life. Or another expansionist fast food restaurant?

I don't have faith in either.  You forgot the quotes around Meadowlark too.  Too many possibles and maybes.

AH wrote:

Could you clarify this question? I would say it's the terms of the community. But I don't know if that answers your question.

It was more meant for something to ponder over.

AH wrote:

Thank you so much for you critique! These dialogues are what refines a movement and strengthens strategies.

Looking forward to you reply!

P.S. Could you post a blog or somthing so I can know you more as a person and see where you're coming from. I think it would help alot.

We all come from the same place.  And it's a sound and light show to think otherwise.
I blogged once.  It was more written to myself, than for advertising myself.  But it might apply here.   http://thouart.wordpress.com/

When I see efforts by people who TRY to make things happen, I feel good about it.  'hey look, they're doing something!'... And then that pessimist comes out, who knows that, that isn't working, and hasn't before. 
Idealism is a "taker" specialty.  We take principles/ideas from nature/reality and try to re-apply them to our 'selves' and 'humanity' in all kinds of weird ways. 
It's our drug.  It's our distraction.

We can lop off the supply (which is why I'm babbling here), or we can 'take' it to it's limit and see what happens (which is why I'm babbling here).

 

Adam Hintz's picture

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Where's Raven,

You're absolutely right. Organic, Fair Trade, Shade Grown are terms that live in the system. To use them renforces the perception of validity for the system. I'm also looking for trade that is simplified and more personal without the B.S.

I think my survivability is better because I've learned things that help me live outside of the money economy. If you'd like to see some of the things I've done here's the first part of a series of blogs. I'm a big Tom Brown Jr. fan. Other primitive skills folk and Daniel Quinn fans are who I would call like minds for me.

I'm fully aware that I am apart of the community of life. I'm also aware that I'm apart of a community within the community of life, Lincoln. Everyday I become closer and closer to understanding my community through communication facilitated by Meadowlark.

By worst I mean quick rapid collapse of civilization with death and famine everywhere. By best I mean cultural shift and sustainability. Sustainability is used in its common sense.

Strategy for me is doing the best you can with what you can. And to me the best is with nature.

Meadowlark exists more than on a piece of paper. It's at 1624 South St. in Lincoln, NE Google map it. Laughing out loud

Walking away is different for different people. I'm walking away right now. I assume you are also.

All and all I think a lot of the misunderstandings come from the fact that I answered questions in the interview with typical people in mind using their terms. My goal was to mention Daniel Quinn and egalitarian organization. For all of it's wrinkles and freckles I'm making Meadowlark into a place that will be as harmless as a bear cave or longhouse.

Thanks for the link it shed a little more light on who you are.

And I think idealism is poisonous too. I think pragmatic solutions are the only way we're going to get out of this.

You and I are brothers in this community. When i stop and open my heart I know Meadowlark is part of my quest to either educate and/or heal my community. Meadowlark is the campfire my community sits around and speaks of important things. I would use a real campfire, but right now more people enjoy being indoors watching TV. Part of my quest is to get people out of their house and then see the world around them.

That's what Raven tells me.

I don't care if Tom Brown Jr. drives a Hummer because his benefit out weighs his detraction's. I'd like to think what I'm doing is similar.

Take Care,

Adam Hintz

Huby7's picture

Cool!

Adam,

Thank you for posting this. I finally got the chance to use my parent's computer (They've got DSL) to watch this. I'm really glad that I did.

Curt

Adam Hintz's picture

:)

I'm glad you liked it.

Take Care.