Ask an Animist!
Some say you will find no better test of your own knowledge than when you teach it to others, so with that...
Hello! I'm an animist. I devote my life to the spirits. With the number of agnostics, atheists and interested seekers out there, I figured it would be fun to open up a Q & A thread.
So, with that, I would like to lay down some traditions:
a) Please phrase your questions respectfully.
b) I am not intending this as a debate thread; if you don't understand an answer, ask for clarification. If you do not agree with an answer, post a forum thread elsewhere (and link to it) where we can hash it out.
c) If you consider yourself an animist, feel free to answer the person's question as well.
d) I welcome all questions.
And if you happen to find yourself in my neck of the woods, don't fear asking for an in-person visit. I'd love the company and conversation over a meal. 
Yours
Bill Maxwell
hi
Submitted by Ludi on Sun, 2007-09-23 17:10.
Hi! I have a question:
Do you think a person can be an agnostic and an animist at the same time? If so, why/how? If not, why not?
Thanks! :)
When Skepticism was king :)
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Mon, 2007-09-24 01:27.
Do you think a person can be an agnostic and an animist at the same time? If so, why/how? If not, why not?
Thanks!
An excellent question! I'd say you should consider agnosticism a pre-requisite for animism. Many (if not most) theological and scientific systems boil down to a prime cause spurring on pretty much everything else. Whether it begins with a Big Bang or the Word of YHVH, the real question people ask comes down to whether this prime cause possesses what we could call a 'consciousness' (in specific, something relatible to humans) or not. In animism, "It's a mystery" forms the general response you'll receive. You can possess a hell of a lot of information about the spirits who work in your area and their effect on people but the creator of the universe itself? They frame this answer in a couple of different ways. One way, naturally, comes out quite literally -- for example, the Lakota word for the universal creator translates as "Great Mystery." Another answer comes out culturally, shapes within the bounds of the stories that form the social fabric of the tribe. An example in mind -- the Tongva. They name their creator as Weywot, loosely translated into English as "Sky Captain." The 'captain' in this translation comes from the Spanish, who couldn't recognize any 'sensible' form of government among the 'savages' and so likened their 'leaders' to ship captains, which formed part of a crew but weren't as clear cut a ruler as, say, a king. The "Wot" among the Tongva could be either male or female (so their Creator doesn't truly possess a gender); the "Sky" refers to both the broad perspective a creator could have and also includes the element of time referenced in "Spell of the Sensuous" (the future, in the tribal mind = the future; great book, btw, if you haven't read it). One more point to add in; the Tongva emigrated here to California from the east, the Hohokan Empire, when it collapsed. In their creation stories, Weywot called in the energies from somewhere else into existence. Alright -- sorry for the long part of the lecture. Here's the bottom line on the cultural example. The Tongva were led here from somewhere else and placed into a situation of abundance, richness, diversity and contentment. The energy that made the universe (in their creation stories) led other energies into existence, allowing it to flow in such an incredible pattern that only a person with a broad perspective and having lived through it could truly appreciate. But what is that energy? Is it conscious (as we understand it)? It's a mystery. But what, you may ask, about all the prayers said to Wakan Tanka and to all of the other Creator gods (Weywot et al.). Doesn't <i>that</i> prove that they think their creator is a capital -G- god? Nah. They treat everybody like that. Every rock, every plant, every animal, every ancestor. Because it's polite, because it's memorable and most important of all, when you pray to those rocks, plants, animals, ancestors, the prayers work. But the Great Creator? That's a mystery! 
Best Bill Maxwell "Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
What is an Animist exactly?
Submitted by surrealswirls on Mon, 2007-09-24 01:17.
What is an Animist exactly? Like you talk to animals, plants and rocks? I've only heard the word passed around here, but never gotten a clear definition of what it means.
And what's the difference between Animism and Paganism?
Will the real definition please stand up? :)
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Mon, 2007-09-24 01:43.
What is an Animist exactly? Like you talk to animals, plants and rocks? I've only heard the word passed around here, but never gotten a clear definition of what it means.
Cool! A two for one!
Alright; animism is the belief that everything possesses a motive energy, what some would call a spirit. This spirit (or energy if you prefer) can be understood and communicated with (though most often on its own terms, an inter-species dialogue rather than "I talk in English and the bird talks in English"). In the case of radical differences in content, i.e. I'm talking to the rocks, the language is symbolic, i.e. it's hiss means something; let's figure out the environmental context in which it takes place so we can understand what it said. Oh sh*t! Earthquake coming!
An adjunct that arises from this belief is that we are all related in one way or another, so you try to address them like you would family or friends. This personification works wonders for your relationship to the world, as you're working in terms that, as a human, you understand (that's assuming you take animism on a strictly psychological level, which you can).
So, everything has an agenda, we can communicate (and do all the time), and we're all related. The pain is in the details, though; beyond these constants rests the intimate study of one's environment and that you can spend a lifestyle learning!
And what's the difference between Animism and Paganism?
Technically, nothing. Paganism is a Christian term that means "Non-Abrahamic faiths" which includes Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. etc. In popular usage, it's any religion that doesn't fall under the "Western faiths" or "Eastern philosophies." Sometimes, it can be used to apply strictly to neo-Pagan faiths or reconstructionist religions (like Asatura, which tries to reconstruct the Norse religion).
In practice, most "Paganism" falls under farmer religions that arose after civilization had a stranglehold on the world's imagination. It also includes various New Age versions of "Native American Spirituality" that fit in more with the farmer faiths than their indigenous roots.
Animism is not a name that's used among the people who follow it. They are Lakota or Dine'h or Tongva or a thousand other tribes following the way of their people. They know they have similarities (and embrace those) but also recognize the differences. I use the term 'animism' strictly as a point of dialogue. Personally, I'm trying to forge a path to my ancestors (Osage, Cymry, Northmen, Anas) and their timeless knowledge while embracing my one and only home (Pacoima in the Tongva tongue, Tovangnar for the general area) where my family has been for four generations and where the ancestors of people I care for (as well as some of my own ancestors) are buried.
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
DEF CON 2
Submitted by Truly on Tue, 2007-09-25 14:30.
Definition Conversation: #2
I think the first usage of the terms as we would understand them is in Anthropology, in the 'good old early days' (when the researchers had sex with the natives and made up amusing stories about them latter). They may be helpful to this discussion, or not, at your option.
Animism refers to a belief that everything contains some sort of soul or motivating force, and in specific, that people can interact with this force on an individual or collective level in a meaningful, symbolic way. This gives rise to talking to trees as individuals, or talking to dying deer and the like.
Animatism refers to a belief that everything contains some sort of soul or motivating force but it is largely impersonal and does not respond to interaction, though it can manifest in interesting and helpful ways. This reflects the polynesian concept of 'mana' that can help leaders lead better and help warriors do better in battle, but its not because you asked it to, but because thats what it does when its inclined to. The Chinese concept of 'Chi' as impersonal energy flows is also an animatistic belief.
Ah, the good old days :)
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Tue, 2007-09-25 18:15.
Thank you for the extra defs (and don't you love those wacky old anthropologists! Yeesh). Just a couple of potential points: usually when someone from civ refers to a soul, they represent it as something separate from the body, often immutable and eternal. The same doesn't often apply to the animistic mindset, where change is the only constant (heh ).
As far as impersonal forces go, and I would love to 'argue' this about mana, there exists a consistent thread that the original creative force appears 'impersonal' only from the standpoint that It (They?) are concerned with the entire universe, not simply our needs. This leads to the idea that certain bigger energies, while potentially being channeled by you, don't have an understandable agenda because our focus is necessarily limited.
Here's hoping that made sense... :)P
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
How do you "channel"
Submitted by surrealswirls on Tue, 2007-09-25 20:37.
How do you "channel" energies? I'm not sure what you guys mean by energies. Maybe an example would help me? I've never thought of a rock as having a will of its own. Or that is was trying to do something specific either for me or the universe.
This is really is a really interesting concept though, and it makes me want to ask a billion more questions:
Do you consider Animism to be a religion? Like are there gods or a God? What exactly are you worshipping? Or is it more like a science? A way of assessing nature? Where would you place it in the Science versus Religion spectrum? How conscious do you think other organisms are to their tasks or energies or spirits? What do you think our energies are trying to tell us to do as humans? (What role do we play in this?) And are we following it? How much room for free-will is there in Animism? Like can a rock or tree do something that is against what the universe wants it to do? Could a human? Is it sacreligious to domesticate animals or to chop down trees to build a house? Is that harming their energy?
personal
Submitted by bbbleaver on Tue, 2007-09-25 21:19.
hi surreal! the differences between 'religion' and 'animism' as far as i have observed is that religion is a contrivance, and it's view is a reaction to misery inherit in civilization (ie, suffering is a given ergo- we must be 'bad' or flawed, etc.,.,.,...). animism in my estimation is an evolved means of dealing/socializing with the world. animism for me could never be a religion; it is far too spontaneous, flexible and personal to be locked into dogmatic terms ie, books, chruchs, etc.
i personally don't have a clue what energy or energies, spirits, souls, gods, forces, etc are. i am familiar with the definitions and even familiar with what others are pointing to (sometimes) and this does not seem to help or expand my own relations with community of life. sooo, can't help there. though there is a wonderful storyteller, tracker and mentor named jon young and he speaks of original instructions of all things. this of course is an explaining story and just one way to help one understand the events and goings on of the community of life. there are audio tapes/cd's available called SEEING THROUGH NATIVE EYES with this and many other stories.
THE STORY OF B is a remarkable source for a literary emmersion in animism. Malidoma Some' is the closest thing to what i imagine a person raised in modernity and then initiated back into their tribe could accomplish - recovering an animistic view/life. his books are really startling close in their message to quinn - a return to tribalism. in a conversation with a group of men malidoma said something like, "just as modernity almost destroyed tribalism, now tribalism, like a virus is infecting modernity and will be it's demise."
care
bbb
thanks for that
Submitted by surrealswirls on Tue, 2007-09-25 23:14.
thanks for that clarification about religion. This is really interesting!
I loved this quote!
Submitted by savagegirli on Wed, 2009-04-08 08:34.
"just as modernity almost destroyed tribalism, now tribalism, like a virus is infecting modernity and will be it's demise."
Wouldn't it be amazing to see this all come full circle...
"The most violent element in society is ignorance."
<3 Randi
A Boatload of Amazing Questions Sails by...
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 06:51.
Ahem... wow. Lots to answer here Thank you!
How do you "channel" energies? I'm not sure what you guys mean by energies. Maybe an example would help me?
When I'm talking about energy, I'm usually talking about it (relatively speaking) in the conventional sense: defined as the work that one system does or can do on another. Only the system in transition from one state into another can be defined and measured. Matter is a condensed version of that but still contains the same precepts (can do or does to others).
Now, again, the devil is in the details. None of us should really talk about channeling energies or spirits as if they are all the same thing. While the fundamental 'blocks' of the universe remain the same, we aren't living as fundamental blocks. We are humans, living in a world of human and non-human material things.
An example; 'Chi' has sometimes been translated as wind, sometimes as breath. A number of martial art 'soft' techniques (which center on 'channeling chi') could be described as elegant ways to channel your breath to super-oxygenate your body, allowing you to accomplish seemingly supra-normal feats through nourished muscles and a mental state that focuses you past the body's normal thresholds for doing things.
I've just (hopefully clearly) described a physical mechanism for spirit but let's take it a bit further. Suppose you have someone so attuned to the wind he leaps off a cliff and temporarily 'flies.' He is able to accomplish this because he intimately understands the updrafts involved in this particular spot in this particular time. Take it one step further; someone is using a combination of natural circumstances to achieve something apparently spectacular, say, rapid healing on a dying friend using song, plants, laughter, dance, prayer.
Channeling energies is being able to assess the world around you and its potential, analyze its relationship to you and be able to bank on it. It's one of the reasons why animists are so keen to keeping their environment hale and healthy. You never know when you'll need some combination of 'energies' to 'save the day.'
This is really is a really interesting concept though, and it makes me want to ask a billion more questions:
And so you did...
Do you consider Animism to be a religion?
Not really. Charles did a wonderful job in his response. I'll throw down mine. People integrated their culture, their individual experiences and their environment into a lifestyle which, the majority of the time, had to work or their tribal unit would fall apart. Their rituals, their spirits, the way they prayed; this was intimately a part of their life, inseparable from it.
I'll give an odd example and hope it works. A tribe living by a volcano often prayed and made homage to their local spirits. Thus, they were surprised to have the volcano go up one day and let off a terrific ash plume. Terrified, they barely survived the multi-day rumblings and shakings and emerged so covered with ash, they couldn't recognize each other. Only two houses were left standing, a square one and a round one. The leader, recognizing he needed some semblance of order, told the tall ones to go in one house, the shorter ones to go in the other house and the smallest of all to see if anything was salvageable in the fields. As it turned out, the tall ones were men, the small ones were women, and the smallest ones were children. To this day, the men live separately from the woman, with the children running back and forth. Thus the gods of the volcano are appeased.
A silly custom, right? Well, not if you consider that perhaps inter-gender fighting was diverting the people's attention from listening to the volcano spirits. After their wake-up call, the survivors worked out a system that would alllow them to pay more attention to their environment than what was being done before.
The point of that long ramble is that from prayer to environment to culture, it's one seamless entity.
Now religion came about when there was an obvious dichotomy. It didn't taken a genius to recognize that the kids were coming out malformed and people were dying younger and horribly of different things. Rational people would generally say "f*ck it" and try something else. The only way to maintain an irrational system was to create a religion that reflected the division. "Hey, it's okay to rape the earth because next year, it'll be all back! The Great Mother must enjoy all that abuse. Hooray!" This dichotomy increased over time until it finally reached a tipping point when... oh wait. That's another answer below
Like are there gods or a God?
There's the Creator (Creatrix, Creators, Chorus, Null, Zip, or Zilch) -- that would be the Great Mystery up above. You can come to your own conclusions on that one. Me, I write poetry about String Theory.
As for gods, yup -- those would be those forces really a hell of a lot bigger than yourself. How would you handle the concept of an amalgram of experiences interfering with your life? Jung called it synchronicity, that seemingly endless string of coincidences that occur when you think of something in particular. The animists put names to them, created / inspired entire personas so that you could more effectively recognize -- and access! -- synchronicity for your benefit.
Let's take, for a moment, my Grandfather (my relationship to the spirit) Coyote. Lots of people ('specially white folk) across the U.S. will claim a spot with him <Sidenote to Ludi Because it's the internet and people can be misunderstood, Ludi, I am NOT talking about you or the post on the Balance thread; I'm referring to people I've run into on other forums and in L.A.> What most people don't understand is the "Trickster" package, which is the eternal outsider, the 'kid', changes from biome to biome. In the desert, for example, he's near and nigh the devil, not because he's evil but because veering from tradition will get you killed in a (relatively) hostile environment. In Southern California, in Tongva territory, where he showed a group of immigrants how to live -- how to thrive! -- in the local environment, he's a hero. It's through understanding the environment and the stories here that you can locate those 'tricky' customs that will give you the mindset to live here, show you the ropes so to speak.
Hm. I keep hoping it makes sense. Vodoun "Loa" are compilations of ancestor 'archetypes' you can speak to; human 'spirits' who can negotiate your position with the universe...
Well, again hoping it's clear. Everything has a spirit; the ones that seem 'bigger than life', those we call gods. Little gods everywhere. Heh. Now I want to go see Princess Mononoke again. Or was that Spirited Away?
What exactly are you worshipping?
We honor and revere Life, the Universe... everything. I mean, what an astonishing, amazing, endlessly fascinating world we live in -- and that's not even counting the fact that it's one of billions of planets out there. I mean, for a moment there, think of it, you're alone sitting in a field of grass, no noise from the animals. The storm's not here yet but the lightning strikes all around you. How can you NOT just explode with the joy and wonder of it?
You know, some of what did it for me? The first time I talked to the wind -- and it talked back! It answered me, just a man, nothing special, but something non-human talked back and said hello. There is such a wild abandon in just that, in that feeling that you are part of this full, rich, insane, and amazing world.
Or is it more like a science? A way of assessing nature? Where would you place it in the Science versus Religion spectrum?
And here's where we pick up a thread of conversation from above. So, you're the first farmers, life is S-H-*-T! So, the people who really pay attention to honoring the world come up with a story to make things easier. Mother Nature really likes to be hurt (bring it on, bad boy!); you're a bad person for doing these things so work harder. Your rewards will come later (after death) when nobody else is watching.
This works for a while; hell it works for thousands of years, especially seeing that when people start figuring out this viewpoint is, well, just a little f*cked, their own specific civilization gets knocked over by some barbarian savages who have the start the whole stupid cycle up all over again.
But finally, some smart folks do break through and say WHOA!!! This faith stuff is bullsh*t and those who avoided the early burning at the stake came up with a nifty way to fix it: "The Ways of Faith and Soul are Mysterious" (yes, they capitalized everything back in those days) "and We Men of Knowledge are too Limited in our Perspective to Understand IT. Thus We will call our Knowledge Science."
Animism wasn't considered science by anthropologists because (a) they kept separating it from the culture as if it was the same as the already screwd up religions they were following and (b) they couldn't understand half the stories anyway because they were coded to the bioregion, referenced stories that weren't told to the anthropologists and contained 'words' that mimicked the natural sounds of that region that the anthropologists didn't recognize as part of the language.
Just FYI, despite the previous rant, I don't have anything against anthropologists; a couple of my good friends are paleontologists & I dearly love them. I do get pissed off, however, reading a dozen or so papers with clear cultural (ours) biases and other talking heads saying how wonderful they were. Hmph.
A nice example I like to give of the Science vs. Animism 'debate' (heh) is the case of Legalist China vs the Taoists. Some day, long ago (damn it -- can't remember the date), a wholly rational government took over in China. The legalist movement excised all religions from any influence in government and took to governing by an intricate systems of punishments to keep people in the proper social frame of mind. Now, partway through their reign, the Taoists came up with this amazing theory; the world was round! They also calculated the Earth's approximate size and the fact that there was probably a continent in the middle of the whole thing between the Western Ocean and Europe.
However, their claim was dashed by the government because it came from a 'religion.' So much for progress. Oh, if you haven't figured it out, Taoism is pretty much Chinese animism.
How conscious do you think other organisms are to their tasks or energies or spirits?
I think they are as conscious as they need to be, often less so. This applies to humans as well. Each of us, right now, could be doing amazing things. But most of us, right now, are sitting in front of computers, staring at a screen. Hm. Somebody remind me to go outside more often.
What do you think our energies are trying to tell us to do as humans?
I can't fully answer that, not as a member of the An-as (sorry, the word comes from White Road; it basically means a member of our current culture). I do know that they want us talking to them again and are confused as hell as to what we are doing.
(What role do we play in this?) And are we following it?
The story that I personally look to and enjoy is the idea that whatever forces created humanity, some of its intention was that we wander around existence, looking under those nooks and crannies that everyone else overlooks. And once we were done, we'd all get together in a big party and share the juicy details.
I think civ got us away from that; I think its stranglehold on the planet takes us away from the ability to discern what truly matters and its relationship to everything else.
How much room for free-will is there in Animism? Like can a rock or tree do something that is against what the universe wants it to do? Could a human?
Free will is always an odd question for me; personally I believe everything is guided by the intricacies of the environment around you but, since on the outside it looks like free will (simple rules interacting to form a complex dynamic), I just go with that. Besides there are LOTS, TONS, BOATLOADS of stories telling about things that go against their nature, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Things change.
As far as the universe goes, you're assuming it has a plan. We don't know that for sure. Part of the Great Mystery.
Is it sacreligious to domesticate animals or to chop down trees to build a house? Is that harming their energy?
The qualified answer is yes. In this regard, I'm going to stoop to cheap theatrics. I forget if you have a loved one (apologies) but go up to him (or her) and punch them square in the eye, hard enough so they can't see. Then see if they want to make out.
Domestication is brain-damaging non-human children by breeding. Chopping down trees nowadays means using a resource nobody gives a sh*t about anyway. After all, it's not like trees can sing, can they (yeah, I've read your post farther down)?
Wolves became dogs because they co-evolved with us, up to the time we screwed them over and started committing atrocities. Cats became housecats out of choice. Then came the same torment.
Put it this way, if you are working with your animals on their terms (packs can run free, litters should be healthy, herds have plenty of space to roam and be chased after by predators) and fostering a relationship where they can interact with you, then it doesn't matter if you're butchering the cattle for meat, racing with sled dogs, petting the housecat. It's when you start seeing their relationships in your terms, for your benefit, is where problems arise.
A stereotypical joke about black-skinned folks in America is that they are good at sports. A doctor once had the unenviable task of pointing out that in certain ways, it isn't a stereotype; slave-owners were deliberately breeding their 'property' to be bigger, stronger, faster, more 'profitable.' If that concept leaves a horrible taste in your mouth, then you get an idea of what I feel like when folks around me start talking about pairing up their 'pets' to get a 'more pure breed.' The old Lakota saying is For All My Relations. All of them.
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
Many thanks
Submitted by surrealswirls on Wed, 2007-09-26 08:55.
wow, thank you so much for answering all of my questions. This has been such an educational day!
definitions
Submitted by bbbleaver on Tue, 2007-09-25 16:09.
dictionary definitions are not static, they set the parameters that remain loose are flexible to context and over time morph, change, contort, right shakespear?
for me animism defines relationship.
how do you preceive the world around you?
hostile?
friendly?
dead?
alive?
under your control?
reciprocal?
bruce charelton has this to say about animism:
Alienation is one of the distinctive features of Western contemporary life that, while pleasures are widely available (albeit at a price), there is almost universally a sense of alienation. Alienation is the feeling that life is 'meaningless', that we do not belong in the world.
But alienation is not an inevitable part of the human condition (emphasis mine- bbb): some people feel at one with the world. This perspective is a consequence of the animistic way of thinking which is shared by children and hunter-gatherers. Animism considers all significant entities to have 'minds', to be 'alive', to be sentient agents. The animistic thinker inhabits a unified world populated by personal powers including not just other human beings, but also important animals and plants, and significant aspects of physical landscape. Humans belong in this world because it is a web of social relationships (emphasis- bbb).
We were all animistic children once, and for most of human evolutionary history would have grown into animistic adults. Animism is therefore spontaneous, the 'natural' way of thinking for humans, and it requires sustained, prolonged and pervasive socialization to 'overwrite' animistic thinking with the rationalistic objectivity typical of the modern world. It is learned objectivity that creates alienation - humans are no longer embedded in a world of social relations but become estranged, adrift in a world of indifferent things.
But objectivity is superficial: animism remains the basic underlying mode of human thinking, and animism can be recovered. When we are removed from the rational systems of civilisation, when learned patterns of socialised behaviour are stripped-away, then animistic thinking can re-emerge and a sense of belonging in the world may return.
the article goes on to say that animism in action is akin to a "type of science" that allows humans to predict and understand more accurately the movements of animals, weather, and so on. in other words, by getting to know the world around you a greater understanding and insight to it's workings are revealed, because that is exactly what we're evolved to do!-understand our relationship to the Others and that includes humans. if by viewing these Others (weather, bulls, bob cats, and tit mice) as alive and indowed with intelligence, not with the scaling or hiearchial approach or view of a westrener (i'm more highly evolved than...) you just might learn something from your nieghbors in the community of life. such as appreciation, when certain plants are ready for harvest, why they are ready for harvest,.,.,.,,....and much more!
bbb
I would be remiss...
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Tue, 2007-09-25 18:47.
Thank you for the commentary on relationships because that truly is the amazing heart that drives animism.
I would be remiss, however, if I didn't point out, in Bruce Charelton's comments, that the terms "mind", "sentient" don't mean the same to an animist as they would to more 'civilized' folks.
Stop for a moment and consider how you would determine if your neighbor had a mind. How do you figure out if he's sentient? I don't come up to the door armed with IQ tests or dissection kits or elaborate testing apparatus. Generally, I talk to the person to see if they're worth talking to. If we speak different languages, I'm going to have to take the time to learn the new one (or have you learn mine). The same applies to non-humans with the added extra fun that you need to learn different modes of communication and admit that in certain cases you will never be able to fully get your intentions across (but still be able to hold a limited exchange!).
Oh... and just a reminder (or, as we call it in the writing industry, a sledgehammer) to other folks, in animism, everything's "alive."
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
Oh wow, I think I might
Submitted by surrealswirls on Tue, 2007-09-25 21:10.
Oh wow, I think I might believe this, but I'm not sure. I've never heard of a definition for it before. This reminds me a lot of the book "Druids" by Morgan Llywelyn... one of my favorite books.
I definitely do feel that plants are sentinent and have an energy. I've felt it very powerfully when in the forests. They feel very wise to me. I kind of imagine them as old men with long beards. I've always felt that if I were only able to listen better, they'd tell me something. Not like in English, but I'd be able to understand them all the same. I always get really quiet in the forests, trying to listen and feeling like I'm missing something important. It pisses me off to hear other hikers in the forest because they break the communication. There is nothing more frustrating in the entire universe than loud hikers. It just seems incredibly disrespectful to me to be boisterous in a forest.
It's harder for me to grasp or accept a rock being sentinent though. I've never felt life emanating from a rock before. Maybe the lichen or moss on the rock, but not the rock itself. How do you listen to a rock to see if it's alive? What about a rock that has been manipulated by man? Is it still alive?
I always thought I was crazy for thinking that forests were trying to tell me something... not me specifically, I don't even know if trees are aware when I'm there or not, but that they are thinking or something - almost like they're really more like talking to each other and I'm just trying to eavesdrop. It kind of feels like they're singing to each other, only I can't quite make out the song. It definitely feels like a song though. It always seemed crazy when I tried to explain it to other people. I kind of just thought that maybe what it really was, was that forests just make ME want to sing, and that I was confusing my own feelings to be that of the trees. Is this at all Animism or am I way off? What would you call these spiritual feelings that I have when I'm in nature?
I would!
Submitted by Ludi on Tue, 2007-09-25 21:11.
I would call that Animism, personally. My personal belief (my own interpretation of your description of your experience) is that you are feeling the energy of life, or "the spirit of the place." Think how totally enveloped in living beings you are in the forest, compared to the city (where so much is inert concrete). Amongst the giant trees who have been alive for a thousand years - that's a lot of living!
concrete vs forests
Submitted by surrealswirls on Tue, 2007-09-25 21:20.
Yeah! Okay, but that is why I am wondering about the rocks being sentinent, because I definitely don't feel the concrete of the cities singing to me like I do feel the forests. Cities seem very devoid of that feeling and I can get depressed in them if I haven't gotten out to the forest or the beach to rejuvenate myself in awhile.
Rocks and Stuff..
Submitted by nene on Tue, 2007-09-25 22:15.
Hey Olivia...
Think not of a rock... but of a mountain.
Consider this... the spirit of a rock would 'move' at a much slower place than that of a tree, just as the tree might move at a slower pace than a rabbit. That is probably why you have never noticed it before. (Or even, think of the difference between A tree, and a Forest...)
I feel the spirit of the rock... especially when I drive through a tunnel in a mountain. Each mountain feels differently, has a different 'story' to tell... has more or less residual 'pain' from the carving of the tunnel. This is also what first drew me west. Driving through Appalacia (sp?) was all about plant life... but when I drove west last year for 10K Ways... that is when I truly encountered the sense of 'earth' and found that it drew me in a way that neither water nor air nor fire could.....
Janene
spirit
Submitted by Ludi on Wed, 2007-09-26 01:03.
Are you able to explain this feeling of a spirit in other words? How you feel the pain?
Thanks.
I find experiences of this sort to be impossible (for me) to express in words. So, I don't know if it's possible for others to express them in a way in which other people can understand.
That's a rough one
Submitted by nene on Wed, 2007-09-26 01:25.
Hey Lynn --
I don't think I really can put it into words... or at least only by analogy.
I am extremely empathic. I feel the emotions of people around me... and of course, the more I know someone, the more sensitive I am. Just for perspective... when I was in high school, two senior classmen died in a stupid industrial type accident. The whole school mourned, of course. One I knew not at all, the other, only by association. However, I spent the next nine months in near-catatonic depression. Because I absorbed the sadness of everyone around me and did not know how to let it go.
After that, (after years of trying) I learned to block out emotion.... to the point that I was as unsensitive as any average taker on the street.... until Ishcon '04. At the end of the conference, we all stood in a circle and had a quiet moment of reflection. It all burst in on me and I practically ran out of there, got in my car and headed home. Along the way I thought it all through and figured out what had happened... and since then I have consciously explored dropping my defenses and allowing myself to be open to that once more.
So... when it comes to mountains (or animals, or trees) what I feel is very much the same as what I feel from other people. Sort of. Mountains are quieter and slower... a little more... staid. Trees also, but not to the same extreme. Animals of various sorts can be VERY similar to humans... but the physical sensation is similar for all of the above.
Does that answer your question in the slightest?
Janene
inanimate objects in the home
Submitted by surrealswirls on Wed, 2007-09-26 03:47.
hey you guys, I was talking to Adam Hintz in the chatroom earlier (he's a really good Ishmael role-player) and he was saying that things in my apartment could have energies or whatever you prefer to call them too, just like the energy I feel in a forest. Do you guys feel that way about your stuff? How do you sense it?
(btw - this is totally the most enlightening thread EVER, thanks you guys)
Loving Your Stuff
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 07:17.
Do I feel that my things have spirits? Absolutely! Though, honestly, those I 'feed' (to quote Martin Prechtel) with stories or offerings have a much higher potential than most consumer crap which is often the functional equivalent of asleep or mildly dangerous.
I'd say the easiest way to 'sense it' is through familiarity with the object; you know the ins and outs of it, its curves, its secret thoughts and stories. You know these things and its like a memory come to life, an emotional shock (pleasant) that comes to your hand.
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
Beauty as a Tasty Treat
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 19:14.
How do you feed things with stories or offerings? What kind of offerings? (is giving the sweat lodge rocks fire an offering?) Do Animists ever make shrines for their offerings?
Martin Prechtel talks about the traditions of certain Mayans, where they believed you had to give back more than you took; you did this by encouraging beauty, by creating things that other species could not. The kind of offerings depends on what you're dealing with. Things precious to you are nice; medicinal scents (the Lakota offer tobacco as a general thank you; so do I. Sage is also good), food, music, dance. Your best bet is to study what you want to offer to (and check out what the locals did in similar circumstances).
Building a 'rock sweat lodge' for the grandfather stones is a type of offering, as is the tobacco that we throw on the stones to introduce ourselves, as is the welcoming song and the incense cedar put on each stone as it enters. Each of these phases serve multiple niches, communicating a story and enacting certain healthy practices among everyone who is participating.
As far as shrines go, totally depends on your culture. Some do, some don't.
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
The Pain of Concrete
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 07:12.
We had an interesting discussion on this at 10K Ways; my two cents on it are this. Let's put the stone's life in a human perspective for a moment.
You live a very ordinary, pleasant, simple life, surrounded by family or friends. Occasionally, something really exciting happens and you may move but overall, it's good.
Then somebody comes along and beats the crap out of you. Pushing you to the ground, they hold you down, forcing you into the soil; you cry for help and your friends try to come to your aid but when they do, this son of a b*tch just stomps you down and tells you to stop struggling.
How do you feel?
That is the life of concrete.
And people wonder why some of us get depressed in cities..
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
Pulverized
Submitted by JCamasto on Wed, 2007-09-26 17:40.
I look at concrete as "industrial processed stone" - dug up, stolen, pulverized, contaminated, reacted, and then crammed into rigid forms, set to serve this culture's will...
Without really asking the stone, or getting it's permission - we've been able to build faster, longer, higher, lighter, stronger - we've done things that couldn't be done with the stone as we meet it in the world. All this stuff we've built is short lived... and will collapse in very short order - especially considering stone's looong geologic "lifespan"...
Overall, its very similar to what we've done to industrial processed animals, plants, ourselves - but fucking over rocks, instead. Same shit, different kingdom.
----
The Oil is screaming as we suck from its home and burn it into extinction. Genocide; ethnic cleansing if you will. But it's fighting back by ganging up and over-heating things via it's gaseous remains...
-Jim
On Rocks & Listening
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 07:04.
How do you listen to a rock to see if it's alive?
There's a story about the first sweat lodge, that the people recognized that a baby is born without negative experiences and they wondered how they might return to that sort of state. Noticing that stones are very old, they wondered if they might have the wisdom to produce that kind of medicine. However, what could they offer in return? Someone noticed that newborn stones (those coming out of volcanoes) started life as red-hot so the people thought "Perhaps we can do a favor for these grandfathers. Maybe we can return them to their youth and then, in turn, they will do the same for us." So it is, before every sweat, you build a wood lodge for the stone people, heat them red hot, and when they are brought into your sweat, welcome them and give them water so that they may release their medicine for you.
I'd heard them hiss and crack and react to prayers and felt their reassuring presence. They are amazing things, rocks; however they live on a different time scale than ours and usually can only be felt by a very solid presence.
What about a rock that has been manipulated by man? Is it still alive?
I'm going to assume you are not referring to metal (smelted out of stone) and are talking about carving. A carved stone is still alive but has undergone an astonishing metamorphosis (for its kind). I'll have to side with Martin Prechtel on this one -- if the stone has been handled properly at all points along the way then it's a thing of beauty. If not, it's potentially dangerous to anything around it.
I always thought I was crazy for thinking that forests were trying to tell me something... not me specifically, I don't even know if trees are aware when I'm there or not, but that they are thinking or something - almost like they're really more like talking to each other and I'm just trying to eavesdrop. It kind of feels like they're singing to each other, only I can't quite make out the song...
Is this at all Animism or am I way off?
That's absolutely animism but you've also brought up an interesting point many people don't get -- the conversations aren't always about you! And, frankly, most of the time, they're NOT ABOUT YOU! That doesn't mean you can't listen or join in and sometimes everyone is talking about you but there's a big wide wonderful world out there and everybody's got something to say.
What would you call these spiritual feelings that I have when I'm in nature?
A good start.
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
manipulated objects
Submitted by surrealswirls on Wed, 2007-09-26 09:25.
What about a rock that has been manipulated by man? Is it still alive?
I'm going to assume you are not referring to metal (smelted out of stone) and are talking about carving. A carved stone is still alive but has undergone an astonishing metamorphosis (for its kind). I'll have to side with Martin Prechtel on this one -- if the stone has been handled properly at all points along the way then it's a thing of beauty. If not, it's potentially dangerous to anything around it.
I'd really like to talk about this further. Adam and I were talking about this in the chatroom earlier today, but then I think his computer froze.
I can easily accept everything we've discussed about Animism up until this point, then I have trouble "seeing" it, so to speak.
For example, we were talking about my coffee table. It's an oak chest. When I'm under an oak tree, I feel its presence very strongly, but I don't feel anything coming from my coffee table. Adam asked me why this was and I said maybe because the oak is dead, or maybe because I have a different relationship to a tree than to my coffee table since a tree has it's own story or history, whereas my coffee table is only part of my history. I know this isn't exactly true, it once was a tree with it's own story, but it's now too connected to my own story for me to look at it objectively?
Life and death are a circle. Everything that lives, must die. If Animists think that everything is alive, then how do we know when something like a rock has died? Is my oak coffee table dead and that's why I don't feel anything coming from it? But if it's dead because it was manipulated into a piece of furniture by man, then how come a piece of stone isn't? I'm very confused.
Also, why did you differentiate between stones and metals? Are metals under different laws of animism than stones?
Thank you so much for all your patience with my zillions of questions. My brain is buzzing.
shhh... they're listening
Submitted by JJ.Halberstadt on Wed, 2007-09-26 16:45.
Hi,
in my childhood my friends always referred to those trees whove been cut down and turned into furniture art and houses as "The Nettles" and whenever we had sleepovers we'd tell each other stories about how the nettles would wake up one day and reclaim the world!!
JJ
++++
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IF YOU WANT TO START AN ARGUMENT WITH ME OR IF YOU WANT TO SILENCE MY VOICE. IF YOU QUOTE WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN WITHOUT MY PERMISSION, I WILL NOT RESPOND TO YOU. THANK YOU.
+++
nettles, etc.
Submitted by surrealswirls on Thu, 2007-09-27 00:25.
haha, that's great! I use to think my stuffed animals were alive. I thought they could only come to life when I left the room. My little brother and I use to try to sneak up on them to catch them moving. They were much too sneaky for us though.
circles
Submitted by bbbleaver on Wed, 2007-09-26 18:54.
swirls wrote
"life and death are a circle."
it sounds like this could be a good part of the "answer" to the question, "...how do we know when something like a rock has died?" finding where in the circle life begins and death ends makes for good debate but that's not why i ask.
many indigenous cultures don't bother with the many types of arguments/dialectics/polemics or lines of questioning that 'we' might think or even believe are natural. in other words, why bother doubting the existence of something let alone arguing about it (when obviuosly it can neither be proven or disproved to be or not be). the advantage they have that we can recover for ourselves is this- knowing their feelings, absent of abnormal stress one can relax and experience/explore/embody their connection with the world and from this gain scientia (knowlegde) [without the external doubts of others who have not shared in this experience]. the point of this being, after reading your posts it sounds like you appreciate the vibrant and estatic exchange that comes from being in a forest or amoung more dynamic elements such as wind or rain? there is nothing to doubt about what you have experienced? if rocks apprear as lumps this, i would say, is no different than when i meet someone and they apprear (in my judgment) to be 'dead' or 'lifeless' not a whole lot of fun. so far this is the relationship until i decide to change it by participating with them in a different way.
the concrete post are awesome - i wish chuck would show up and tell us about his relationship to concrete as a building inspector/animist. because he works closely with these "materials" he has a familiarity that goes far beyond who/how i know concrete.
i am little afraid of concrete. as a punk skater kid in the 80's i fell a lot, and have been in numerous automobile "accidents" where the hard road played a role... i respect all it does for me as well, foundation for my home, allows me travel quickly to other places, .,.,.,... making offerings, solicitations, or songs to the "inanimate" is great way to get to know more about how you already think and feel about them and can devulge information we might not of previously known.
care
bbb
Lifeless People
Submitted by surrealswirls on Thu, 2007-09-27 00:28.
good point about lifeless/dull people. That's another thing to include when thinking about all this.
Banging Out Answers :)
Submitted by TwoRoadsTom on Wed, 2007-09-26 19:23.
When I'm under an oak tree, I feel its presence very strongly, but I don't feel anything coming from my coffee table. Adam asked me why this was and I said maybe because the oak is dead, or maybe because I have a different relationship to a tree than to my coffee table since a tree has it's own story or history, whereas my coffee table is only part of my history. I know this isn't exactly true, it once was a tree with it's own story, but it's now too connected to my own story for me to look at it objectively?
You had it right; it's dead, as far as oaks go. Now, there are other forces at work within it.
If Animists think that everything is alive, then how do we know when something like a rock has died? Is my oak coffee table dead and that's why I don't feel anything coming from it? But if it's dead because it was manipulated into a piece of furniture by man, then how come a piece of stone isn't? I'm very confused.
I do understand the confusion; take into consideration the life of the thing in question. If you cut down a tree, for a number of trees, you kill it. Cut an earthworm in half and you get two earthworms. For rocks, getting manipulated can be akin to us getting a piercing. It changes the shape of the rock but doesn't neccesarily destroy the rock. In the lifestyle of a rock that's out in the 'open', age will turn it into sand.
Also, why did you differentiate between stones and metals? Are metals under different laws of animism than stones?
Metal is not under different laws; I just feel that it, like any refined substance, requires a lot more careful handling than just a rock. There are stories that the reason why uranium is so deadly is that it's pissed off it got removed from its home deep underground. That's why it keeps lashing out and making people sick.
Thank you so much for all your patience with my zillions of questions. My brain is buzzing.
Thank you for asking! I hope I've been able to provide some small frameworks for exploration.
Best
Bill Maxwell
"Change comes from giving up the myth that you are in control."
Good show
Hey Bill --
Nice! Hopefully this will be a fruitful thread.
I'm feeling pretty clear headed , myself, these days, re: animism. But I know you and I are in slightly different places, so I'll be looking forward to observing the discussion....
Janene